Some stuff from 2023 conquest cup since i promised so long ago, but never posted…
This was Matthias’s year, he won with 498m or something like that. I missed the area by just few meters, otherwise i would have gotten 3rd in hornbow!
We did some practise shooting where Matthias broke his bow and Adam did 556m. The 556m was a major new breakthrough, showing what is 90# bow capable of. Last pictures you see this Adam’s bow and record arrow.
Surprisingly i have no podium picture, but the 2nd and 3rd place went to turkish guys.
Great bow eye candy and scenery.Looks like nice weather.
The donut on the handles of the bows.Is that there to assist with the siper? or to protect the hand in some way.
Now if the wind is blowing everyone must deal with it and pick their shot correct?
It looks like Matthias’s tip on his bow shattered.What grain weight arrows were being shot and what kind of string do they require?
Its really nice to get to Istanbul weather from Finland. Even at that time, end of may, we sometimes have cold weather and ground free of snow for few weeks only.
Istanbul hotels are nice and the breakfast is really luxurious. And let me tell you, compared to american breakfast its heavenly!!
The donut is called mushamma and its the early version of pistol grip like palm support. It is needed with siper.
The shooting range is arranged every year in the same place, same direction. I would say its generally good, but sometimes even opposite wind… Not really most optimal, but with limited resources its all we got. Sultans had many ranges to pick from and i guess their slaves/workers brought the tents so!!
The tip got broken quite badly indeed. I think the bow unstrung itself mid draw. Other guys shoot 170-190 grains, but i will go higher with my heavier bows. I use 210-240 grains.
We are allowed to use modern strings so everyone uses fastflight. Our bows need to have nock pieces from bone or horn. Otherwise the string splits the nock after ~5-10 shots.
The hotels are probably less expensive than in the states also…ha ha.
I guess the Sultans could kind of manipulate the conditions using multiple ranges to shoot in to set records???
That’s good they allow fast flight I think.It puts things even on the same playing field.Probably not like the Sultans used but what the heck heh.
Competition is a good thing.I’ve played sports my whole life.It brings the best out of people with good gracious manners.
Yep, they chose the best wind conditions, but we have more knowledge in some aspects so maybe it evens out.
Competition brings out the best of people yes, if good manners persist… But i don’t know about it happening always. Some people are dropping out of competition since “they cant win”.
Also in Istanbul, there is price money. Unlimited glass category and unlimited hornbow category both pay 4000-3000-2000e for the top 3. This might have changed some things…
Well then we have a name here for those dropping out…“quitters”…ha ha.
Quitters never win and winners never quit.The oldest truest saying in the world.
How many days does that fee cover?Can one camp for themselves?You can bet the fees won’t go down in time…ha ha.Sorry I’m just a cheap ass…ha ha.
No matter that’s life.
Back to the bows and arrows…Does one who has made a bow with intentions of using it as a flight bow shoot that bow as much as the utilitarian type bows?
I’m always amazed at the durability of the bows shown made here shooting such lightweight arrows.
Originally the turkish archery federation paid flights and hotels for all the foreign participants. They spent like crazy it seems. But the first year i participated (what a coincidence) this ended and now recent years we have a participation fee of 100e per class. Now the price money has gone up too so its worth it for the best archers especially.
These bows might have very low lifespan. Only if you are seasoned veteran, you manage to build bows that last many competitions. But when you know what to do, flight bows can last years and years. Its just a difficult task to make a really fast bow perfectly. Common problems are sinew backing breaking down or delaminations because of high reflex. Its like a race car, surely you are going for the limits??
Most of my flightbows have been shot only some 10-15 arrows. Sounds stupid when i put maybe 60-80 hours of effort into that bow…
I’m hopeful those days are behind now for me. Only problem i’m sometimes battling is that horns develop cracks and delaminations inside the horn. Like airpockets of sort, which start to spread. Really annoying…
I’ve only gone through maybe a dozen pairs of horn.The ones from china were’nt the best.A bit of straightening,but no problem really.
Most come from a guy in India as pre ground slats.He’s on Etsy nowadays.One was bad and had a crack like it was overheated too much and the grain was squirrely like the animal had an injury while young and the horn grew over it.
Lots of expectations for you making those bows,but when you get so close that kinda spurs you on I imagine.Bend or bust.
A person has to have quality material then.
Relooking at those pictures.That bow press is nice too.
You really make that kind of horn work? On average they are not brittle or suddenly warp if they get moisture?
Hornbowyers on general are very suspisious of this kind of processed horn. But also, we want the horn to have reflex and natural concavity. You might have noticed that i use convex-concave glueline on all my bows.
I buy my horn from vietnam.
Nowadays i could not build bows without bow press, i think. With heavy bows it gives so much control. Really really important. It gives confidence.
Well maybe I should check out what Viet Nam might have…ha ha.Those slats have never warped for me while using them though.
Yes I’ve read and have known of the convex-concave orientation on horn bows.It’s to reduce the poisson affect.Also to get the best from that orientation for efficiency.I do not have the concave-convex scrapers or the curved forms which can be used to apply concave and convex shape to the horn either.
I guess you think that sounds strange.I’ll explain my process.
I’ve made a fair amount of bows using the flat slats of horn.No problems.I do not groove but still finely draw shallow toothing lines on my horn and core after prope sizing of course.I have match grooved a couple of core to horn bows yet though to be a little familiar with it’s process.I crown the horn after application.I apply my sinew on a crowned core most times leaving the surface flat with more on the edges.Sometimes I crown the sinew also.
When drawing I do not see the poisson affect on my limbs.I’m sure it is because the core is not so preloaded before sinewing and the limbs are longer too with longer working sections.The limbs do get sort of preloaded when the horn is applied in a sort of perry reflex method.Then further reflexing is done while sinewing reverse bracing to achieve higher reflex.
When reading Adams’ book it is said or I interperate that it can all be done this way.
I have never had one break down or bust yet.I use these bows on a regular basis also.Shooting thousands of arrows through them.
Now as far as performance goes they shoot A+ in my book for my purpose.Sometimes one can be splitting fine lines though.Comparing speed numbers to turkish horn bows or FG bows made the best they can using hunting weight arrows they more than hold their own and most times out perform them.That’s shooting through a chronograph using the comparison of 10 grain per pound drawweight arrows per each bow of any kind.
Straight self bows of mine shoot most times into the mid 170’s fps with 10 grain arrows at 28" draw.I’ve made a lot of them of many different styles.Occasionally over 180 fps.The horn bows I make shoot a little over 10 fps faster.Noticable with the naked eye.
Recurved self bows can shoot over 180 fps also,but I find the horn bows are more durable because I use my bows a lot for meat and fun.
In the end we all should realize that it’s about energy stored/energy released in comparison of limb weights to arrow weights.
If this means you don’t want to communicate with me because of this so be it.I will continue on.
I appreciate your conversation non the less anyway.
No, no, grave misunderstanding! English is not my native language and this is a internet discussion forum - misunderstandings will happen. Sorry.
I make blunt statements with no hidden message. Those flat horns work just fine for your use. We make different kind of bows, thats why the method is different.
I didn’t know that those processed horn laths can be even used in bow. Sometimes there was a myth circulating they press them after boiling in grease of some sort. But people should try themselves before judging, obviously.
Those are fast selfbows for sure. I’ve had similar numbers with laminated longbows, but not selfbows!
Yes I’ve heard of them straightening horn with hot grease of some sort.That’s not good at all.If it smells bad or seems brittle it’s no good.
Like said earlier I have seen some that the grain is kind of off line.Not good on wood and I’m sure not good with horn either.
I’ve got to admit the dedication it takes to make the bows you make is of a high regard.
Laminated bows are wonderful bows also,but I’ve fell out of favor with bamboo.They’ve always seemed to be like kit bows I call them…ha ha.I really like sinew and what it brings to the table.I think it’s because horn and sinew have such reselient qualities to them.
Although the process we go through is all kind of predetermined also,but does’nt take away the adventure of making them though.
Thank you again! Its a lot of work and effort for sure. Surprises me every winter!!
There is plenty of learning to do with these bows still. I wish there was a way to model hornbows with virtual bow. They are so dynamic with taking “set” but then springing back too. So the bow is ever changing - makes modeling somewhat impossible.
We have really tough natural timar in Finland, sometimes under 20% humidity. Therefore i haven’t used timar. I’ve even broken some bows because of the dryness… In the future i will do some tests with the timar hotbox conditioning.
In Utah we had the bows at 20% humidity for longer periods and they were unbelievable stiff. So there is some performance to be gained.
In the winter it gets to around 30% humidity at the lowest.I burn wood for heat so that makes it a bit dryer also.Summer it gets to around 60% to occasinally 80%.I run a dehumidifier then in the house.You live in a cold cold area of the world there.That cold air just does’nt hold much water…ha ha.
Our winters usually average in the 20’s and 30’s F.with an occasional period of below zero weather most times not going below -20 F.Although one time it did get down to -30 F and it did’nt get above 0 F for 3 weeks even in the daytime.That was a tough time for the animals.
I try to keep the house at 50% humidity year round.
Many don’t realize how much that extreme difference in humidity can affect performance on a bow.I feel bows can only be made in the shop pulling shavings.Sitting on the couch dreaming is a short cut lazy way and most times is inaccurate.Too many variances,but it might have a use I guess for some.Most times it’s those who comment on someone making a bow with their virtual investigation.
Seems like you have proper winters there! Like Finland.
Permanent 50-60% humidity would be so nice. Its always a bit of hassle to get the materials withstand stress and dry properly otherwise.
Like you said performance differences are big, but i think many don’t realize how much problems comes from fluctuating humidity. Gluing horn becomes impossible, many mistakes are magnified to big issues because materials become brittle. Things move - perfectly good material crack. Glue, horn, wood etc.
With the weather living in the country the saying always is prepare for the worst and hope for the best.We try to depend on just ourselves to get out of trouble or a situation of too much snow or anything for that matter.We are kind of independent people or do it yourselfers.Cheaper that way…ha ha.
Like you we watch the weather in the winter time constantly.
Your right it’s hard for someone to imagine what it’s like to live in such dry air conditions.Do you need to put canvas on the belly of your limbs?I’ve heard that in some arrid areas the bellys of bows like juniper will crack from sinewing.Is there any way you can manipulate an area more favorable to glue up in?You probably have tried already.
Sinewing during more favorable times of year helps with me over here.
Keeping it stable here costs with electricity using dehumidifiers in the summer.In the winter it is more favorable but can get on the dry side if below zero weather stays for extended periods of time.We have run humidifires occasionally in the winter time here also.
Personally here I like to sinew in the winter time in the room the wood stove is burning.I keep the temperature up to slow the gelling time of the sinew and hide glue.
I’ve made some croaker glue also but ha’nt used it much yet.It gells very slowly.I imagine sturgeon glue is the only glue you will use.
After sinewing I put the bow in a cooler room of around 65 F. upside down on the floor to slow the process down even more then for at least a few days.
I keep probably at least 4 analog humidity gauges in various places of the house to keep track of the way things are.
You are right, when conditions get difficult and you live in the countryside, you need to be resourceful!
Covering the belly with glue helps. So before applying sinew you sand the horn, then when sizing the back of the bow, you also size the horn belly. This protects it somewhat from checking. I guess cloth could be used, but i don’t do it.
I use only hideglue, but sometimes its so sensitive that at some point i should maybe do some glue tests again. Originally i had so much problems with gluing horn and sinew that when i found a match that worked, i just stayed at it. Sinew glue would be interesting, for example. I have some backsinew that can’t be used, so i might aswell make glue from it.
I do use a humidifier and i have humidity gauges in various places too. I might be able to artificially raise the humidity so that i can brace bows in march. I might do it, so i have more time to finish them before Istanbul competition in may.
I need to post some pictures of 2024 comp first. Some might be interested. These forum’s always have people lurking, even though not many do comment!
I’ve had few guys contact me and ask about those flight competitions. In the meanwhile they are preparing bows.
Yes more eye candy of the competition would be interesting to me.Sounds like participation is picking up.
After a week of below 0 F. temperatures while burning wood for heat the humidity is now closing in on 25%.
But the temperatures are like a rollercoaster these days.A few days of 30 to 40 degree weather brings the humidity back to 40% again.
I like it in that the curing time on sinewed bows is sped up.
English is not my native language and this is a internet discussion forum - misunderstandings will happen. Sorry.